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Comprehensive Resources

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1 Comprehensive Resources on Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:20 pm

I've been talking with Theo, and he came up with a fascinating (and workable) idea for resources. So here us out here, because I actually like it a lot.

There would be Five resources:

Manpower - Directly linked to population, perhaps with a 2:1 ratio or something similar. Manpower would be essential for infantry units, but a token amount would be required for just about anything.

Income - Same as it is now. This would be the primary economic resource, and would be required for all military units and construction.

Oil - Empires start generating 1 Oil per turn. Oil resources generate another 1. Refineries can boost that generation. Oil would be required for just about anything mechanized - from tanks to ships.

Steel - Empires generate 1 steel per turn. resources boost generation by 1. Factories/Metallurgies can further increase income. Steel would primarily be used on warships, but would also be a factor in some land units.

--

You'll notice that Oil and Steel are on an Income model in this system. Instead of acting as caps on recruitment, you gain a certain amount each turn, which you can use to build up your army, or trade/sell to other empires. This lets us have complicated resource requirements without forcing people to keep track of all these different caps; you earn it, you spend it, and you're done. Manpower and Maintenance end up being the only hard caps on construction.

So for example, a battleship might be something like this:
Battleship -
Recruitment: 20 Income / 1 Manpower / 5 Oil / 6 Steel
Maintenance: 5 Income

The 1 Manpower goes against your MP cap, while the 5 income is a maintenance cost. the Oil, Steel, and initial building cost are all spent at once and forgotten about. Simple.

This system would let players build up armies for engagements, then deplete them in battles and fights. Owning resources and facilities lets you recover faster instead of just having a larger army. Since Oil and Steel are gained through an Income, they can be bought, sold, and traded in order to get the units you need.

Manpower would be linked to population, so if a division of infantry gets annihilated it would cause a penalty to population. This makes Pop growth an important game feature, and encourages people to be careful with their units.

Note that this system does require each and every unit recruited to be important. If we have armies of 50+ divisions it's going to be too complicated. This is a system where every division and battleship bought would be a big investment that has to be preciously defended and watched over. I think that's a good thing, but it would require a reflection in the prices.

--

Personally, I really like this idea. It encourages people to trade and work their resources to build armies, which they can then expend fighting one another. Resource control becomes very important, but in a long-term sense rather than a grab-it-and-get-10-more-slots one. It would also open up a lot of possibilities with traits and such. Certain ideologies or governments could have better income or greater costs. Draft could majorly boost your manpower but hurt your unit quality. Industrialist could make steel refineries more efficient. There are so many fun options, and they could all be encompassed in an easy-to-use system of resource income, with three of the resources as static map points by region.

Ideally, we would aim for players to have around a division for every million soldiers. So an Empire with 60 million would have around 60 divisions total, maybe more or less depending on their distribution of units. This would mean that a battle would usually include perhaps a dozen or two divisions, with only Stanlingrad-sized engagements getting into the 30-40 ranges.

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2 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:17 am

Infantry Division:
Cost: 3 IP / 10 Manpower

Cavalry Brigade:
Cost: 5 IP / 10 Manpower

Armored Division:
Cost: 8 IP / 6 Manpower / 1 Oil / 1 Steel

Heavy Armor Regiment:
Cost: 12 IP / 6 Manpower / 2 Oil / 1 Steel

Artillery Regiment:
Cost: 4 IP / 8 Manpower

Mechanized Infantry:
Cost: 6 IP / 8 Manpower / 1 Oil

Intelligence Operatives:
Cost: 12 IP / 1 Manpower


Air Craft:
Bomber Squadron:
Cost: 8 IP / 3 Manpower / 1 Oil

Fighter Squadron:
Cost: 6 IP / 2 Manpower / 1 Oil

Strategic Bomber Squadron:
Cost: 12 IP / 4 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil

Naval Units:

Destroyer:
Cost: 4 IP / 1 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil

Cruiser:
Cost: 6 IP / 1 Manpower / 3 Steel / 2 Oil

Battleship:
Cost: 16 IP / 2 Manpower / 7 Steel / 2 Oil

Submarines:
Cost: 8 IP / 1 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil

Dreadnought:
Cost: 22 IP / 2 Manpower / 9 Steel / 3 Oil

Aircraft Carrier:
Cost: 24 IP / 3 Manpower / 6 Steel / 2 Oil




Last edited by Theo on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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3 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:30 am

Shazere


Admin
All right, I like it. Let's do it. Suggestions on which government types and traits to fiddle around with first?

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4 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:39 am

Manpower is 10 per 1 million pop.

Fascism should make it like +2 manpower per 1 million.

Need to look at the others.

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5 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:54 am

With cost is that recruiting cost or maintenance

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6 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:55 am

That's how much it costs to recruit/build one of those units.

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7 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:23 am

I foresee one problem: With oil as only a production cost, players will be encouraged to replace basic infantry with armor over time until, at some point, they have entirely-mechanized armies. As much as massive fronts of tanks and nothing but tanks cars fighting it out over entire theaters of war is a cool-looking idea, it doesn't seem realistic, even as a far-off "end-game" situation.

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8 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:28 am

Problem thus solved with the usage of oil as a move/attack resource.

You have 7 Infantry Divisions and 2 Tank Divisions you want to invade Sessau with?

It'll cost you 2 Oil to attack with them. Finis.

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9 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:44 am

Good balance would solve the problem as well. Tanks are great and all, but if you're stupid enough to drive an all-tank army into mountainous or urban terrain without an infantry screen then you deserve every exploding hunk of metal you get.

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10 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:54 am

Good way for starting Oil and Steel.

EXAMPLR

Population = 60,000,000

1 mil = 1 IP

60 IP.

However many millions you have, you get that amount of X.

Steel and Oil combined make X.

So 60,000,000 means you get 60 points. It could be 60 Steel, 0 Oil. 60 Oil, 0 Steel. 42 Oil, 18 Steel. Et cetera!

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11 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:59 pm

Implemented basic rule changes. I also modified unit descriptions to give players a better idea of what interwar period units were like.

We still need maintenance costs, and all factor costs for Torpedo Boats, specialist units and Zeppelins. (And yes we need Torpedo boats. Destroyers were designed for killing the things)

We also need to begin modifying traits to portray the new resource system.

And really, I can't finish Markatz until I know what Partisans cost.

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12 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:15 am

Shazere


Admin
Here are some specialist unit prices, look, debate, decide what you want. Btw, Maritime Culture needs more of a con. Right now it's not cutting it or it should be chopped up into two different traits. Maybe double the cost of construction for warships in terms of steel or something along those lines.

Specialist Unit:
Specialist Units are units that fill specially designed niches. They are VERY good at one particular thing, and each has their own limitations and weaknesses. They are not as versatile as standard units and are expensive. But for some obstacles and operations they can turn the tide of battle.

Imperial Guard- Specialist Bodyguard Troops
Will always support the reigning government during coups and rebellion attempts.
Strong against standard infantry
Weaker than standard infantry against armored units
Requires Imperial Guard Barracks

12 IP / 8 Manpower

Partisans - Specialist Stealth Infantry
Can much more readily hide, advance without detection, and set ambushes than standard infantry.
Can readily operate behind enemy lines.
If operating behind enemy lines, carries six turns of supplies and can gain more through raids.
Weaker than standard infantry in open combat.
Operates in small units
Requires Guerilla Barracks construct

16 IP / 6 Manpower .

Paratrooper Company- Specialist Paratroopers
Can drop behind enemy lines
Can only carry six turns worth of food and fuel before they begin to become combat ineffective.
Take up an oil slot (this covers the transports that the paratroopers will be transported in)
Requires Jump School Construct

8 IP / 10 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil

Chemical Weapons Battalion- Deploys Mustard Gas and other chemical variants
Risk of chemical weapons being exposed to friendly troops upon deployment
Takes up an oil slot (due to trucks and other equipment being needed to transport the materials)
Requires Chemical Weapons Manufacturing Construct

10 IP / 5 Manpower / 2 Oil / 1 Steel

Shock Troops - Specialist Assault infantry.
- Can commit to "Assaults", storming enemy positions.
- Risk of high casualties during "Assault".
- Very effective against entrenched units.

14 IP / 12 Manpower / 1 Steel

Marines - Specialist Amphibious Infantry.
- Can commit to amphibious assaults.
- High Morale.

14 IP / 10 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil

Railway Artillery-Specialist Artillery Unit
-Effective at breaking fortified lines.
-Requires Rail Yard in order to move.
-Can be derailed via destroying tracks, infastructure, etc.

16 IP / 8 Manpower / 3 Steel

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13 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:32 am

Did you remove Ruthless as a leagle trait on purpose? I liked it. :(

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14 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:53 am

Ruthless was exactly the same as Secret Police, only not as good. I didn't see any reason to have two redundant traits. If you can think of a way to make ruthless not redundant then I could bring it back.

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15 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:50 pm

Shazere


Admin
All right, it's my off day so i'll try and get up some rough drafts of the traits that will be changing. I'll be on and off throughout most of the day so hit me up if you need anything.

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16 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:19 pm

ok XD Marjorie needs to read more carefually.

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17 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:43 pm

Shazere


Admin
All right guys, sorry i haven't been around. I've been having a nasty week between work and family. Anyway, I have two days off so in your opinion what traits need to be changed? I changed the rationing trait and am going to add the Black Gold Trait but what government and economy types should be changed to affect the new system? Opinions? And anything else? Feel free to suggest. I don't think all the traits haveto be fiddled with just a couple.

Rationing:
Perhaps it's because this nation has suffered through the hardships of war and has learned to make every bullet, every bean, and every piece of scrap metal count. Regardless, through forced rationing the government has managed to pull together more resources for its soldiers.
- Country produces +2 steel per turn
-1 Public Approval

Black Gold:
This nation has been blessed enough to have one of the most important resources of all, oil and in great quantities sifting beneath the earth. This could also be described as a curse as nations eager for more resources may look upon with this country with hungry eyes.
-Country produces +2 oil per turn
-NPC nations are more hostile to this faction (feasible weakness or should it be done away with?)

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18 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:59 pm

Well if we're using Talis' Doctrines they need to be posted into the mechanics section along with the rules for how they are chosen. As well as the new civic constructs Shazere suggested. if we are using the doctrines maritime culture should be changed from:
- Empire begins with a shipyard
to
- Empire begins with a Civilian Harbor

Also we need upkeep costs for the standard units so people can create their starting forces. I guess it can wait on specialists cause no one will start with any to begin with.

Last I had an idea for specialists that i though would be interesting. that one nation could "buy" units from another. while in truth it would act more like one nation is sending it's men to receive specialized training in another country. this would only be available to Nations under an Alliance. The unit would be available to the purchasing Nation the update after next.

EX: Naitions A & B are Allied. Nation A has taken Traditional Army as it's doctrine and Nation B has taken Naval Power as theirs. Nation A wants to have Nation B train some of his troops as Marines so he can make an amphibious assault in the future. Nation A agrees to pay 21IP, 2steel, and 1oil per unit trained. the manpower cost is taken from Nation A's Manpower Cap and keeps the unit, that will arive in two updates. Nation B keeps the surplus resources not used to create the unit.

Just a thought that came top me at work let me know what you think

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19 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:17 am

only upkeep costs are IP costs.

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20 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:22 am

then what are the recruitment cost only oil, steel, and manpower? otherwise your saying that upkeep on an infantry division is the same as it's recruitment cost. at least that's whats shown so far.

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21 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:52 am

Vaklu's got a point, we need to post maintenance costs for units as well.

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22 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:16 pm

Shazere


Admin
I'm going to get rid of the Eugenics trait as it really doesn't fit, also changed Command Economies bonus. Will post unit upkeep costs in a few. Also, what are we doing in regards to Talis suggestion for elite units? I liked it but I know a lot of you hated not having access to certain specialist units so what do you want to do? I'm in favor of having it as a sub category Doctrine but not nesscecarily tying it to having certain units. Maybe use it to say that for example under the Air Pioneer's Trait Paratroopers are either A) Cheaper or B) Fight more efficiently.

Command Economy:
In a command economy the government dictates what is produced where. There may or may not be a private industry, but the government has the final say in all cases. This gives the government access to 100% of the empire's resources, but inflicts significant costs on the economy and restricts personal freedom.
- Can produce either +1 Oil or +1 Steel a turn
- Wealth defaults to 2
- Public Approval defaults to 2
- Harder to gain Public Approval

Possible Social Trait:
Isolationist:
This nation has turned its back on meddling in the affairs of its neighbors, its people prefer to keep to themselves even if it means turning a blind eye to the most blatant threat to its own security. As a result, wars of foreign conquest and intervening in wars are nearly unheard of in this nation's history.

+2 to Public Approval and Security during times of peace
-4 to PA and Security if nation is the aggressor during war.


Possible Weakness Trait:
Technologically Backwards:
This nation is underdeveloped in terms of technology and is inferior to many of its neighbors in issues ranging from manufacturing to technology, this often translates into an inferior military machine that cannot compete effectively against traditional military powers.

-Military units are less effective on the battlefield.
-Cannot recruit paratroopers, chemical weapons specialists, or railway artillery

Construct:
Steel Works:
A steel mill or steel works is an industrial plant for the manufacture of steel.
Level 1:
Cost: 250 IP / 2 Steel
Output: +1 Steel a week
Level 2:
Cost:
500 IP / 4 Steel
Output: +2 Steel a week
Level 3:
Cost: 700 IP / 6 Steel / 10 Manpower
Output: +3 Steel a week

P.S. Let's finish this freaknig forum already.

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23 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Shazere


Admin
Upkeep costs, take a look.

Infantry Division:
Cost: 3 IP / 10 Manpower
Upkeep: 2 IP

Cavalry Brigade:
Cost: 5 IP / 10 Manpower
Upkeep: 3 IP

Armored Division:
Cost: 8 IP / 6 Manpower / 1 Oil / 1 Steel
Upkeep: 4 IP

Heavy Armor Regiment:
Cost: 12 IP / 6 Manpower / 2 Oil / 1 Steel
Upkeep: 6 IP

Artillery Regiment:
Cost: 4 IP / 8 Manpower
Upkeep: 3 IP

Mechanized Infantry:
Cost: 6 IP / 8 Manpower / 1 Oil
Upkeep: 3 IP

*NOTE: APC's and IFV's are going to be pretty basic during WWIish days. Think armored trucks with a .50 caliber machine gun attached or half tracks.

Intelligence Operatives:
Cost: 12 IP / 1 Manpower
Upkeep: 6 IP

Fighter Squadron:
Cost: 6 IP / 2 Manpower / 1 Oil
Upkeep: 3 IP

Bomber Squadron:
Cost: 8 IP / 3 Manpower / 1 Oil
Upkeep: 4 IP

Destroyer:
Cost: 4 IP / 1 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil
Upkeep: 3 IP

Cruiser:
Cost: 6 IP / 1 Manpower / 3 Steel / 2 Oil
Upkeep: 4 IP

Battleship:
Cost: 16 IP / 2 Manpower / 7 Steel / 2 Oil
Upkeep: 8 IP

Submarine:
Cost: 8 IP / 1 Manpower / 1 Steel / 1 Oil
Upkeep: 4 IP

Dreadnought:
Cost: 22 IP / 2 Manpower / 9 Steel / 3 Oil
Upkeep: 12 IP

Aircraft Carrier:
Cost: 24 IP / 3 Manpower / 6 Steel / 2 Oil
Upkeep: 15 IP

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24 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:34 pm

I've gone through and modified the military units, changed a couple traits (such as Draft) and added a few constructs on my own to speed things along (such as a Steel Foundary). Delete or modify anything as you see fit.

Honestly the forum's nearly done. I'll start RPing, but to really finish it we need to:

1. add maintenance costs to military units
2. Put up specialist prices and finalize specialists.
3. Add static resources to the map.

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25 Re: Comprehensive Resources on Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:49 am

Don't forget the posting of options for military doctrines, which aren't in the Mechanics yet.

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26 Re: Comprehensive Resources Today at 12:43 pm

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