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1 Mechanics Suggestions on Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:40 pm

Alright, I'm going to propose some mechanics changes here. I've hesitated about doing this because it's not my forum, but some of the designs here seem messy and unintuitive, and I've thought of some intriguing possibilities, so I'm going to put these out here:

Suggestion 1: Split ratings by Region.
Regions offer a great opportunity for nuance without excessive complexity. Now obviously Imperial Reputation is a national thing, but Public Approval and Economy can both work as specifics. This would have the awesome advantage of allowing us to distinguish between regions. Some regions might be rich, while others could be poor and worth little. An occupied region might have a low public approval while the ruler is popular in the homeland.

It would be quite easy and simple to implement too. Simply list regions in the Dossier. Have a little list like this:
Region 1
Public Approval: Unanimous Approval
Economy: Prosperous

Not only is this easy and effective, but it also opens up nuances for constructs. A building can boost approval in a region OR the entire country.

Suggestion 2: Expand the rating system to a 1-10 function.
This one is tied to the above suggestion. I devised the six-point rating system as a massive generalization because WE was a massively generalized game. Here we have the opportunity to zoom in a little and be more flexible.

By combining this with the specific region idea, we'll have a system where moderators can change ratings with much more freedom than WE. Changing Survaek's economy rating was a MAJOR effect, but changing one region by 2 points on a 10 scale would be much smaller, but still measurable.

I don't think we would need to label all 10 ratings. I would apply them to the current labels. 1-2 would be Despised, 3-4 would be Unpopular, etc.
Building on the suggestion above, we could label regions with even more detail without adding much complexity:
Region 1
Public Approval: 9
Economy: 6

It makes constructs way, way more flexible too. We could have constructs that boost public approval by a set number, or sacrifice one rating for another, or have some other function in exchange for lowering ratings.

Suggestion 3: Replace Economy with a regional Wealth rating.
Instead of having Economy modify your total Income, have each regions Wealth (on a scale of 1-10 as per suggestion #2) decide how much Income the region generates. A region with 1 wealth might not generate any Income, while one with 10 could generate a huge amount- maybe 100. The math could be pretty simple - say six times the rating for a minimum of 6 income or a maximum of 60. Luxury resources and constructs could boost the rating.

This would make constructs more flexible, but more importantly it would make regions strategically important. A high-wealth region could make or break an Empire, while a low-wealth region can be sacrificed relatively easily. If we also have static resources and factor in things like coastlines, we can make a situation where some regions are naturally more valuable, encouraging players to pick and choose which regions to develop.

Economic System could determine baselines for Wealth and Public Approval in the same way it does now. Controlled Economies might default in the low points, maybe 2 or 3 for both ratings, while something like Socialism could put Public Approval at 5 or 6.

Optional Bonus Suggestion: Add a Security rating for each region.

A regional Security rating could be a great function in a modified espionage system. Regions with high security would be difficult for spies to operate in, or even enter, while low security regions could easily be manipulated. It would also be a much more tangible and definite factor than randomness. Say a place with an "exposed" (3-4) rating can be spied upon and operated in with little chance of being caught, while one with a "Controlled" (7- Cool rating would prevent sabotage of or spying on all military and government functions, but allow it against civic targets.

I hope you'll all think about these suggestions. It may seem like a bad idea to change so much right now, but I honestly think it would lead to a much more awesome experience. Most of the constructs and traits we have could be easily adapted, and the system leaves room for more by allowing other possibilities (A government that has higher security? An empire where the capital region gets a wealth boost? A building that raises public approval and wealth but lowers security?). In the end, I designed WE the way I did because of the setting and style. Rather than transpose that system, I think we should adapt it to suite this setting. If there's agreement I'll do what I can to help, but this isn't my forum to decide.

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2 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:02 pm

Shazere


Admin
I really, really like the first suggestion as it adds more depth. I'm gonna try and implement something into the forum tonight.

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3 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:43 am

Shazere


Admin
Here, take a look. This is what I came up with.

Each Empire has three factors that itself its position in the cluster. These three factors are Public Approval, Economy, and Imperial Reputation. Each factor can be increased or decreased in a number of ways. Good ratings provide bonuses and advantages against enemy Empires, while bad ratings can cause penalties and danger.

-----------------------------------------------------

Public Approval reflects the populace' approval for its leaders and its willingness to follow them. High approval lets leaders get away with things they couldn't normally, but low approval increases the risk of protests, coups, and rebellions. Players begin with the rating of Accepted by default in each region, but their actions will move them up and down on the scale. Public approval varies BY region, where the capital might be peaceful, calm, and support the ruler the frontier provinces could be near open revolt. Each approval rating has a scale 10 (being unanimous) is obviously the best with 1

Unanimous Approval - the best rating possible. Governments with this rating enjoy almost unstoppable support. They are untouchable by political rivals, and it would take a major disaster to turn away the public's faith in them.
- No civil unrest

Scale: 10

Popular - The ruling government is popularly supported. Any malcontents keep their heads down and their mouths quiet.
- very low possibility of protests

Scale: 8-9

Accepted - The government is accepted by the populace, but it is not overly popular. Those who disagree with the ruling powers will voice their opinions, but will not be able to cause significant trouble unless something happens.
- slight possibility of protests or riots

Scale: 5-7

Unpopular - An unpopular government is in power. People still tolerate the rulers, but they are actively looking for alternatives who might do a better job.
- moderate possibility of protests. slight possibility of riots. very Low possibility of coups

Scale: 3-4

Loathed - The government is largely loathed by the masses, who ignore laws when possible and are likely to voice their objections to current policy vocally in protests or riots. Any opposition party is likely almost as strong as the government.
- high possibility of protests or riots. Moderate possibility of coup or rebellion

Scale: 2

Despised - the government has lost all credibility in the eyes of its subjects. The only thing keeping its members in power is brute force, but opposition groups are working hard to change that.
- Very high chance of civil unrest

Scale: 1

Things that Improve Public Relations:

Investing Infrastructure Points in Public Welfare

A prosperous economy

Military victories

Constructs


Things that harm Public Relations:

Military defeats

Allying with empires that have a low Imperial Reputation

a Recession or Depression


Wealth:
Wealth determines the economic productivity of a region. It can vary from region to region, while some might be exceedingly rich and choked with natural resources another region could be starved of resources and have little in the way of money. Like public approval, Wealth is on a scale of 1-10. 10 being a booming economy and a 1 being a region in the midst of an economic depression.

Booming - The best rating. Economies that are booming are growing at an extraordinary rate. Ecstatic citizens are raking in larger salaries and more goods while factories run at full production.
Regions produce: 60 IP
Modest bonus to Public Approval

Scale: 10

Prosperous - The economy is prosperous and growing. Industries are expanding to meet growing demand, and unemployment is low.
+5% Industry Points
Slight bonus to Public Approval

Regions Produce: 45 IP

Scale: 8 to 9

Stable - A stable economy is healthy, but sluggish. People are not suffering, but they're not getting ahead either. Industries are at high capacity, but expansion is slow.

Regions Produce: 30 IP

Scale: 5 to 7

Recession - The economy has dipped into a recession. Growth has stopped, and Industries have been forced to cut their labor forces to adjust for reduced demand. People aren't happy, but most competent workers have kept their jobs.
Regions Produce: 20 IP
Slight decrease in Public Approval

Scale: 3 to 4

Depression - A major depression is devastating the empire. A significant fraction of the population is unemployed, and major Industries are struggling to stay afloat, much less make a profit.
-20% Industry Points
Regions produce: 15 IP

Scale: 2

Collapsed - The economy has entirely collapsed. Banks have shut down, factories lie empty, and grown citizens beg for food in the streets.
Regions Produce: 10 IP
Major decrease in public approval

Scale: 1

Things that Improve the Economy:

Trade agreements

Investing Infrastructure Points in Exports

Territorial expansion

Stability


Things that weaken the Economy:

Broken trade agreements

Lost or conquered territory

Unrest

-------------
Security:
An Empire's security rating determines how effective enemy espionage activities will be in the nation's territory, espionage activities can range from gathering intelligence on troop movements to sabotaging constructs. A high security rating will make it very difficult (if not impossible) for enemy agents to operate in an Empire's territory effectively. However, a low security rating in a region increases the chances of espionage attempts dramatically. Scale's range from 1 to 10, with 10 (Police State) being the best and Anarchy being the worst. Security also effects the severity of revolts when they occur. A nation with a high security rating will be able to isolate them when they occur and snuff out enemy leadership. However, a nation with low security might see rebellions quickly spread to other cities and even across regions.

Police State- This countries regional security apparatus is impregnable, it has eyes and ears everywhere from the houses of the high born to the lowest street urchin. Nothing slips past this nation's intelligence service.
Scale: 10
VERY low chance of espionage attempts succeeding.
Very high chance of rebellions being dealt with effectively

Counterintelligence:
This state's ''security apparatus'' is highly efficient and capable, most thing's don't slip by the local security bureau and leads are often followed up on.
Scale: 8 to 9
Low chance of espionage attempts succeeding
High chance of rebellions being dealt with effectively

Security Apparatus Network:
This nation has adequate security precautions in place to ensure that major incidents do not occur, while security lapses do happen they are not often.
Scale: 5 to 7
Normal chance of espionage attempts succeeding
Normal chance of rebellions being dealt with effectively.


Intelligence Failure:
The local intelligence agency is in trouble, it's no doubt understaffed and underscored. Or it's leadership is simply incompetent, regardless cracks are beginning to appear.
Scale: 2 to 4
High chance of espionage attempts succeeding
Low chance of rebellions being dealt with effectively.

Anarchy:
The security here is abysmal, the borders are practically free to walk across ,there is no active attempts at intelligence gathering, the informants network is laughable, and it would be easy for someone to plant a bomb virtually anywhere.
Scale: 1
High chance of espionage attempts succeeding.
Low chance of rebellions being dealt with effectively

Thing's that Improve Security:
Constructs

The amount of soldiers stationed in a region

High Public approval rating

Thing's that Weaken Security:
Lack of troops in a region

Low public approval rating

Military defeats


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4 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:05 am

Looks pretty awesome. I hear you about having a set system rather than constant changes, and I think we can manage that. It'll be really easy to convert most of the traits and such we have now. The security buildings will obviously boost the security rating, public approval boosts that, etc. And governments like dictatorships can suffer a universal PA penalty while a Constitutional Monarchy maybe can't fall below 2 or 3.

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5 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:16 pm

So Dictatorships PA Penalty would be like half of their gained Public Approval works cuz Dictatorships have a more difficult time gaining PA (but not an easier time losing it).

So like if a military victory would have given a Dictatorship +2 PA for a region it'd be a +1 instead (If it was a major victory for that Empire but if it was a minor one it'd be like a +1 normal PA but for dictatorships it'd be a +.5) Something along those lines ya?

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6 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:22 pm

That's a possibility. Another option would be for Dictatorships to start with lower PA than normal. Either one would work, so it's up to Shazere to decide.

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7 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:40 pm

Shazere


Admin
Initially, Dictatorships start one level lower in public approval rating completely and it's harder to gain public approval. But not lose it. Reason I did it is because so many people are picking Dictatorship, combining it with Martial Trait, and it's getting to be ridiculous. I'm also going to work on revising the trait system to start reflecting the Mechanic's changes, should have revisions up soon.

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8 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:24 pm

Shazere


Admin
Ok, so my idea is this. Like in real life, you'll have both a national economic rating and a regional economic rating. Regional economic rating will obviously vary from region to region. The national economic ranking is based primarily on the performance of your regions. For example, if I have three regions that are prosperous and two regions that are stable, my national economic ranking would be: Prosperous. National economic rankings don't give IP bonuses or penalties per week (unless it says otherwise in the economic type). They more affect public approval. If you have a sputtering national economy, obviously it will effect public sentiment nationwide which a moderator can factor in at his discretion. Anyway, I worked on some of the traits for the economic types. Tell me what you think. Yes, no, feel free to change. This is a rough draft I wrote up when I was half asleep. If it's too complicated, I'll scrap it.


Free Market Capitalism:
This nation has put its faith in letting the market decide, which according to the economic conditions can be a good thing or a bad thing. The government has little control over the levers of the economy, when it booms it can lead to massive revenue increases but when it goes bust the government can't do much to stop it.

- Capital Province defaults to Wealthy
-National Economy rating defaults to stable
- Easier to lose Economy rating both in regions and nationwide
- Remaining regions defaults to Stable
-20% penalty to gross IP production when national economy rating is in a recession.

Oligopolistic Capitalism:
A system where industry and economy are ruled by extremely wealthy private executives. These executives are often willing to work with their government, providing a superior amount of Industry at the government's beck and call. In addition, oligarchs tend to manage the economy well for their own benefit. Unfortunately, the structure of oligarch rule causes significant misery among the abused working class, resulting in large amounts of unrest.

-Up to three regions default to prosperous, with remaining regions defaulting to stable.
- Public Approval defaults to Unpopular nationally and in up to three regions.
- Easier to lose Public Approval
- National Economy defaults to Prosperous


Command Economy:
In a command economy the government dictates what is produced where. There may or may not be a private industry, but the government has the final say in all cases. This gives the government access to 100% of the empire's resources, but inflicts significant costs on the economy and restricts personal freedom.

- 10% bonus to national economy
-Two regions default to wealthy
-Three regions default to Recession
- Public Approval defaults to Unpopular nationally and locally in two regions.
- Harder to gain Public Approval
- National Economy defaults to Recession

State Socialism:
State Socialism is an economic system where property is held in common by the government and goods are distributed to the masses. Socialism has problems with motivating people to produce surplus goods, so it struggles to achieve economic extravagance, but provides safeguards against economic collapse.

- Public Approval defaults to Popular nationally and up to three regions.
- Empire cannot achieve Collapsed or Booming Economy ratings in regions or national economy.
- Economy in all regions defaults to Stable

Syndicalism:
Rejecting both the state bureaucrat and the private executive as ultimate owner of the means of production, this nation's economy is managed by a network of trade unions or worker cooperatives. This radically direct form of popular sovereignty protects the dignity of the common laborer, but struggles to consolidate the massive productive capacity that more centralized and hierarchical systems can achieve.

- Public Approval defaults to Popular nationally and in up to three regions.
- harder to lose and easier to gain Public Approval
- 10% penalty to IP to national IP
- harder to gain Economy rating
- Economy defaults to Stable

Mercantilism:
Mercantilism sees economics as a game of sums played by governments with strong levers, though not necessarily total control, over their markets. Empires are stronger when they support themselves and export goods, and weaker when they become reliant on foreigners. This philosophy fosters powerful engines of commerce when the sums favor the empire, insecurity and fear when they do not.

- Trade-related constructs generate 10% more IP
- Trade agreements with nations of lesser industrial power (measured by total IP revenue) are more effective
- Trade agreements with nations of greater industrial power weaken Economy rating
- Economy defaults to Stable in all regions

Mixed Economy:
This empire's economic policy is a matter of careful pragmatism and extensive compromise. A sensible mix of state, private, and popular controls ensures that the interests of all stakeholders in the economy are accounted for. However, with no side fully satisfied and no strong economic ideology to unite disparate factions, this balance is difficult to maintain. It takes only a single unwarranted concession of power to upset such a precarious equilibrium.

- Public Approval defaults to Popular nationally and up to two regions.
- Cannot achieve Unanimous Approval rating
- Susceptible to sudden change in Economy Type
- Economy defaults to Stable in all regions

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9 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:46 pm

I get your idea about national Economy ratings, and mechanically it works just fine. However, I want to caution you personally about development. Remember that as a moderator you personally, and any other moderators you might appoint, are going to have to crunch all these numbers and watch these systems. Moderator fatigue can kill forums, so pay close attention and make sure you don't make the system so complicated you'll get tired of it. I made that mistake on the first WE and it cost me, which is one reason I tried to simplify the second.
Your players will have to crunch the numbers too, so think about what kind of burden you might place on them when you're developing too. It's not a hard and fast thing, but an important factor to consider.

Now, on to the economic systems... My only urge would be to put numbers now that we're using that system instead of ratings. You've got the nuance of 5 and 6 both counting as "Stable," so use it.
I dislike the Command Economy and Ogalipolistic Capitalism elements that distinguish between regions; It's bothersome and it can't be used by small empires.
"Trade Related Constructs" needs to be specified, or you need to make it a category.

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10 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:34 pm

Shazere


Admin
True now that i'm looking it over again, it looks overly complicated on paper. I'll try and re-design it again. Unless you want to take a crack at it.

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11 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:50 am

I'll take a shot and let you decide if you like it.

Personally, I don't think you need a national rating when you have regional ones; your economy's overall health is already implied by the status of your empire's provinces. So I'll just put down some precepts:

Economic System determines an Empire's default status in provinces. Once determined a player can raise the region's wealth by establishing trade agreements and building constructs.

Capital Regions (Maybe we should have a capital construct so players can move their capital if they want) get +2 wealth, Security, and Public Approval just for being the capital.

Coastal Regions get +1 wealth from fishing and sea trading. Other regions may have their wealth influenced by the environment at the moderator's digression.

Luxury nodes boost a region's wealth by +2.

Now all the systems are going to start players with an economy on the low end, but that's by design. We want players to build up their region's wealth rather than just having it. It may seem a bit harsh to start a player at 2 or 3 wealth, but just think - build a railroad for +1, a couple trade agreements bring in +2... you're already up to 6, and what about traits, governments, and other constructs that might add wealth?

---------

Free Market Capitalism:
This nation has put its faith in letting the market decide, which according to the economic conditions can be a good thing or a bad thing. The government has little control over the levers of the economy, when it booms it can lead to massive revenue increases but when it goes bust the government can't do much to stop it.
- Regional Wealth defaults to 5
- Regions that fall below 3 wealth don't produce any income.
- Public Approval defaults to 4

Oligopolistic Capitalism:
A system where industry and economy are ruled by extremely wealthy private executives. These executives are often willing to work with their government, providing a superior amount of Industry at the government's beck and call. In addition, oligarchs tend to manage the economy well for their own benefit. Unfortunately, the structure of oligarch rule causes significant misery among the abused working class, resulting in large amounts of unrest.
- Public Approval Defaults to 2
- Wealth Defaults to 5
- Easier to lose Public Approval

Command Economy:
In a command economy the government dictates what is produced where. There may or may not be a private industry, but the government has the final say in all cases. This gives the government access to 100% of the empire's resources, but inflicts significant costs on the economy and restricts personal freedom.
- Construct effects on ratings are doubled.
- Wealth defaults to 2
- Public Approval defaults to 2
- Harder to gain Public Approval

State Socialism:
State Socialism is an economic system where property is held in common by the government and goods are distributed to the masses. Socialism has problems with motivating people to produce surplus goods, so it struggles to achieve economic extravagance, but provides safeguards against economic collapse.
- Public Approval defaults to 6
- Empire cannot achieve wealth ratings below 3 or above 8
- Wealth defaults to 4

Syndicalism:
Rejecting both the state bureaucrat and the private executive as ultimate owner of the means of production, this nation's economy is managed by a network of trade unions or worker cooperatives. This radically direct form of popular sovereignty protects the dignity of the common laborer, but struggles to consolidate the massive productive capacity that more centralized and hierarchical systems can achieve.
- Public Approval defaults to 5
- Wealth defaults to 6
- Luxury nodes only provide +1 wealth
- Railroads and coastal regions don't provide a wealth bonus

Mercantilism:
Mercantilism sees economics as a game of sums played by governments with strong levers, though not necessarily total control, over their markets. Empires are stronger when they support themselves and export goods, and weaker when they become reliant on foreigners. This philosophy fosters powerful engines of commerce when the sums favor the empire, insecurity and fear when they do not.
- Luxury nodes generate +3 instead of +2 wealth
- Trade agreements boost wealth by +2 or +3 instead of +1
- Economy defaults to 2

Mixed Economy:
This empire's economic policy is a matter of careful pragmatism and extensive compromise. A sensible mix of state, private, and popular controls ensures that the interests of all stakeholders in the economy are accounted for. However, with no side fully satisfied and no strong economic ideology to unite disparate factions, this balance is difficult to maintain. It takes only a single unwarranted concession of power to upset such a precarious equilibrium.
- Public Approval defaults to 4
- Economy defaults to 4

--------------

You'll notice that I gave each economic type it's own role. Mixed Economy is a balanced type. Mercantilism starts weak, but gets more benefits from trade and resources, making it good for players who want to involved internationally. Syndicalism is the opposite of Mercantilism - it starts strong, but has a hard time gaining Wealth. Socialism has good stats and plays it "safe" not letting players fall too low or go too high. Oligarchies have good wealth but crap PA. Command Economy focuses on constructs. And finally, Free Markets have good stats, but really suffer when they fall.

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12 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:25 pm

talis are you still using the one to ten scale cause that means everyone's public approval starts at accepted in the best case.
honestly i think making economies run regionally is bad idea just on the book keeping side unless someone makes an excel sheet to be distributed to the mods to help them keep track.

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13 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:49 pm

Shazere


Admin
Eh, I don't think it will be that hard in practice. Since at max to begin with it'll only be about six regions, which isn't very hard to keep track of if most of the regions are performing at a similar economic level.

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14 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:31 pm

I really like Talis' proposal. I say we go for it. If a few problems crop up, we can fix them when they do. After all, it's impossible to preempt every difficulty, and Talis' system looks like an awesome system that reforms won't bog down the way they have others.

EDIT: As for the Public Approval ratings, vaklu, I am totally in support of starting relatively low. In the last forum, we had laughably little popular resistance to governments, even authoritarian ones like Survaek and Safavid. Furthermore; the point of this forum is FUN, and for FUN you need DRAMA and CONFLICT! To that end, exaggerating public disapproval a tad is totally acceptable to me.

EDIT 2: However, for balance reasons, especially considering the Command Economy, as well as for a degree of realism, perhaps we should allow every player to start with a certain IP's worth of constructs. That way Syndicalist agrarian states won't start with three times the wealth of Stalinist heavy industrialists.

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15 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:01 pm

Shazere


Admin
Agreed, I should have some other forum edits up tonight after work that you can all look at. Let's try and get the ball rolling on this forum though. It's taking a bit too long to get thing's coordinated and I know people want to play.

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16 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:36 pm

One more thing: Under the proposed system, dictatorship works really, really badly with Command Econ and Oligopolistic Capitalism, while in reality most dictatorships have roughly one of those two economies. Perhaps the PA decrease shouldn't apply for those? Or else, we could have both Command Econ/Oligopolistic Capitalism and Dictatorship boost Security rating. In any case, having a bunch of small business and trade union managed economies under dictatorial governments seems ludicrous to me, so we need a mechanical way for that to be discouraged, if not prohibited.

EDIT: Speaking of governments, Talis is right in criticizing the current setup for Confederation. However, I think that it is fixable. Why not change the bonus so that, since each component nation can be expected to look after its own local interests, there is a floor on regional wealth and approval ratings? If anyone has other suggestions, that's cool, but I'd rather not simply cut the government type out.

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17 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:38 am

I also like Tali's idea, and I don't think the math will be too bad. It might help also (if you are worried about mod fatague) if you have players work out their numbers and PM them to the mod(s) and "show their work" so it's easy to look over. Then each person is just crunching their own numbers and you just have to look over it and see that it looks right and you can check it if something looks off.

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18 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:15 pm

Here's an idea for the security ratings. I've added a baseline to political ideology and changed two legal traits, not sure if gov type should effect the rating or not. let me know what you think.

Democracy:
Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self determination.

-Public Approval Higher
-Competing political parties with widely different views
-Base security 3

Fascism:
Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. It advocates the creation of a totalitarian single party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy.
-Military Maintenance is 10% cheaper
-Ultra Nationalist- Imperial Reputation is lower
-Base security 5

Nationalism - The Empire stands by a people and for a people. Local customs and traditions become ceremonies of state and points of pride.

-Public approval Starts one level higher
-Trade agreements are less effective
-Base security 5

Communism - The ideologues of the land hold crony capitalists in scorn and encourage their people to throw aside unenlightened superstitions like the free market and religion.
- Constructs are 10% cheaper
- Economy is weak, increased chance of famine
-Base security 4

Conservative - Conservatives distrust new ideas and concepts, dipping their proverbial toes into the pool of modernity rather than diving in headfirst. Their role at the helm ensures that new ideas will be a long time coming.

-Conservatives are well entrenched in their ways, new tactics are something to be looked at with scorn. Conservatives excel at the 'old way' of warfare. Cavalry and Standard Infantry fight more efficiently.
-This unwillingness to embrace change has lead to this nation being left behind technologically. Specialist units cost 20% more.
-Base security 4

Populism - Populists scorns the upper classes and intellectuals, preferring to extol the virtues of the "average man." This is all well and good, except that they often forget that average men are also part of the unwashed masses.

-Infrastructure Constructs cost 10% less to build
-War fatigue sets in faster.
-Base securtity 3

Aristocracy- The empire is run by the priviliged few. The land owners and wealthy who have been running things and leading armies since before the age of steam.

Air of command- The aristocracy have been leading armies for generations and are often sent to the best tutors for tactics and the proper way to lead men in the field and their confidence help to steady the soldiers around them.
+ Your Empire's troops only suffer half the effects of their current moral damage.

Extravagant luxury- The Aristocracy is accustomed to throwing lavish banquets in honor of whatever comes to mind at the moment. This often leads to a strain on the empires coffers.
- -5%IP production
-Base security 4


Legal traits

Secret Police:
The Secret Police have wormed their way into almost every level of society, people can whisper one word to a trusted friend only to find themselves in a prison by dawn the next day. It is easy for a people to disappear in this society and the people have little to say about it, lest they find themselves condemned to a similar fate.
- +2 to security rating
-If this country is invaded, the intelligence service will be able to give more accurate details than usual on enemy movement, numbers, etc.
- -1 to public aproval

Civil Liberties:
This empire has a strong tradition of civil liberties. Not only that, but people actually know their rights, and the government respects them. This leads to a vibrant and open society where people can do and say what they wish. Culture and happiness thrive under these conditions. On some occasions civil liberties do stop the government from going after legitimate targets.
- Empire more easily gains Public Approval
- -2 to security
- Cannot be used by a Dictatorship

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19 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:25 pm

Shazere, do you want me to help implement the changes? I've avoided just going in and changing stuff without approval, but I could speed things up and start putting pieces in if you want.

As for the system, I'm glad you all like it. We can always do minor tweaks later. I totally agree with Aspen's proposal about starting with constructs. Also, after looking at the map I am of the opinion that coastal regions sholdn't get a +1, since they are simply too common. They will get plenty of economic advantage from trade access.

Another possible rule would be that trade only boosts adjacent regions (or those connected by water). That would give coastal regions a desired advantage (more access to trade) and it would make more of a discrepancy between regions.

-

I've also been looking over the Political Ideologies and their function. Right now they just seem like another set of advantage and disadvantage, and aren't really distinct from Governments. Usually if a mechanic isn't distinct it doesn't have much purpose or relevance, so perhaps we should think about how to make Political Ideologies important.

I don't have any concrete proposal here, but I do have some ideas:
- Since Public Approval and Wealth are government by economy type, why not allow Political Ideology to determine the default Security level? Strict ideologies like fascism could have high starting levels (maybe 4), while ones like Democracy and Populism could have low levels (1 or 2).
However, if we do this we would really have to change the system, since an advantage and disadvantage won't balance out different security ratings.

- Avenues of development could be another possibility. What if certain ideologies provide advantages for certain types of development? This could be achieved by providing a discount on a particular type of construct (maybe military or civic buildings), allowing the construction of unique building types, or maybe providing an extra bonus for certain buildings (Barracks provides 2 regiments instead of 1, or farms provide a wealth bonus).
This would choosing a particular ideology important while deciding what kinds of development the player plans to do, and it would leave government free to govern more general bonuses or costs.

- Specialist units are a good avenue for uniqueness. We don't have means for a lot of them to be recruited right now, and letting ideology control their distribution could be interesting. Maybe Democracies get Partisans and Marines, while Fascists get Shock Troops and Imperial Guard?
This could be overdone though. Some of the specialists do make more sense as anyone-can-train units, but others would work better if they were linked to governments.

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20 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:47 pm

Here's an example of a two possible Political Ideologies, balanced with Security Ratings:


Democracy:
Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self determination.
- Security defaults to 3
- Enables Partisan and Marine Specialists

Fascism:
Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. It advocates the creation of a totalitarian single party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy.
- Security defaults to 5
- Enables Imperial Guard specialists

-------------------
Or Alternately:

Democracy:
Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self determination.
- Security defaults to 3
- Rail System and Telegraph Network both provide +1 Public Approval

Fascism:
Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. It advocates the creation of a totalitarian single party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy.
- Security defaults to 5
- Military Barracks provides a basic infantry division instead of a conscript regiment.

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21 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:23 pm

lets try this again. this time using talis' idea.

Democracy:
Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self determination.
- Security defaults to 3
- Rail System and Telegraph Network both provide +1 Public Approval

Fascism:
Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. It advocates the creation of a totalitarian single party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy.
- Security defaults to 5
- Military Barracks provides a basic infantry division instead of a conscript regiment.

Nationalism - The Empire stands by a people and for a people. Local customs and traditions become ceremonies of state and points of pride.
-Military Barracks provides a second conscript regiment.
-Base security 5

Communism - The ideologues of the land hold crony capitalists in scorn and encourage their people to throw aside unenlightened superstitions like the free market and religion.
-Industrialized Farming and Oil Refineries both provide +1 Wealth
-Base security 4

Conservative - Conservatives distrust new ideas and concepts, dipping their proverbial toes into the pool of modernity rather than diving in headfirst. Their role at the helm ensures that new ideas will be a long time coming.

-?
-Base security 4

Populism - Populists scorns the upper classes and intellectuals, preferring to extol the virtues of the "average man." This is all well and good, except that they often forget that average men are also part of the unwashed masses.

-Industrialized Farming and Oil Refineries both provide +1 public approval
-Base securtity 3

Aristocracy- The empire is run by the priviliged few. The land owners and wealthy who have been running things and leading armies since before the age of steam.
-?
-Base security 4

I couldn't think of anything for conservatives or aristocracy, So give some ideas and thoughts.

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22 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:09 am

How about Aristocracies get income from Opera Houses, or can boost Imperial Rep for the first two or three Opera Houses instead of just the first? Conservatives could have improved defensive constructs.

Also, another Political Ideology idea

Neoliberalism:
An outgrowth of neoclassical economics, Neoliberalism is the counterweight to Communism. Maintaining that all of society's ills can be solved by the laws of supply and demand, the philosophy encourages people to forget the notion of "public good" and pursue self-interest above all.
- Security defaults to 3
- All Infrastructure Constructs provide +1 Wealth

EDIT: We still need to balance out political systems you are proposing. All of them provide roughly equal construct bonuses, while the levels of security each affords vary greatly.

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23 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:47 pm

Shazere


Admin
I don't know about this +1 thing for constructs, you could easily ramp up a region's wealth like that with just a couple of buildings. I know we were talknig about 'super constructs', if you wanted to do +1 wealth rating for the really expensive constructs I could see that.

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24 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:52 am

Hmmm...we could always give Neoliberalism a construct-based IP bonus independent of regional wealth instead. However, we still need to address the issue of balancing political ideologies. Those with higher security ratings need to have either lesser construct bonuses or some sort of drawback.

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25 Re: Mechanics Suggestions on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:23 am

I put a tentative version of the Ideologies up in the Mechanics thread. I did a simple 1-1 recourse for balance - every point of security below four an ideology had meant one more construct that provided a bonus.

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26 Re: Mechanics Suggestions Today at 12:46 pm

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